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ARTICLE SUMMARY

Should Muslims fit in with the British way of life?

MUSLIMS were urged by a senior Tory peer last night to make a greater effort to embrace mainstream British culture.

DEFIANT AND YOUR BNP KIND…

17.12.07, 11:02pm

…You hate brown people with beards who believe in a foreign religion. Good start. But why stop with one kind of brown, one kind of beard or one kind of foreign religion? Sunbed Scotsmen are bearded, orange (nearly brown) and believe in a foreign religion that originated in Germany. Their patron saint is buried in Italy. And they attacked England.

Hatred must be consistent if it is to be honest. Can you be honest?

• Posted by: muggles • Report Comment

DON'T MENTION THE CRUSADES VINCE

17.12.07, 9:30pm

They were a long time ago. Look at the poison that old Adolf spouted out to the Squareheads all those years ago but after they were released from his spell, the old Krauts are pretty normal now, if not to say rather embarrassed by their actions.

We all need to accept that we are all now in the 21st Century and we have science and logic; and we don't need that 6th Century mumbo jumbo stuff to spoil our enlightened lives. We abolished capital punishment over 40 years ago as not quite fitting into civilised society.

The last thing we want are medieval beardies coming over here and dictating how we live our British way of life.

I'm off to join an Alpha course to see how long before they chuck me out.

• Posted by: Zeigfreid • Report Comment

MUSLIMS

17.12.07, 8:51pm

they will never accept us,its not us accepting them they dont want to and wont intergrate with us,we accept the mixed marraiges they dont .you will never change this they are here for the sole reason it is a better place than where they come from

• Posted by: angel702001 • Report Comment

LETS SUM UP...

17.12.07, 5:36pm

defiants argument thus far....

there may or may not be a phrase in the koran which talks about lying to infidels, depending on how skewed we want to interpret that.

(now, we will ignore the fact that jesus in the new testemant tells people to pluck out their eyes... anyone could see where that was going)

ok, anyway, back to the point... so there may or may not be, depending on how you interpret it, this thing about justifiable lying on occasion. this, accodring to defiant, makes all muslims liars.

this also makes them worse than christains, because apparently the many atrocities and several hundreds of years of violence and mass murder as shown below, committed by self-confessed christians (in the name of god), does not reflect poorly on all of them, becasue, at the end of the day, all muslims are liars.

very good defiant. ever think about joining the legal profession?

oh, and to answer your other message... well, i am here because i find the conversation and exchange of well thought out ideas stimulating. i see the daily express as a combination of ancient greek analyitical logic, and the thought provoking environment of the enlightenment period... i just can't get enough!

• Posted by: Vince • Report Comment

YOU TAQIYA THE HIGH ROAD AN' I'LL TAQIYA THE LOW ROAD

17.12.07, 4:54pm

Its worse than you think Defiant. I don't think its that we represent everything he hates - I don't believe the lily-livered left-leaner actually hates at all. I know, hard to credit innit! Imagine not rottin' from the inside out with a scalding hatred and not havin' to blame it all on foreigners an' stuff: it just doesn't bear thinkin' about is it!

I love this taqiya business though. Every time one of 'em claims not to want to eat our babies we know they're lyin' because taqiya allows 'em to? The cunning Scottish blighters!

• Posted by: Little_Harry_Hewitt • Report Comment

HYPOCRITE

17.12.07, 3:50pm

One wonders why a Guardian reading left winger spend so much time on this paper when it clearly stands for everything he hates ;)

• Posted by: Defiant • Report Comment

BAH

17.12.07, 3:47pm

Nice comedy routine Vince but as I thought you ignored the point which is Islam tells them to lie to the infidels!

Perhaps you should think when you read........

• Posted by: Defiant • Report Comment

SHOCKING NEW EVIDENCE!

17.12.07, 2:02pm

this just in from defiant...

terrorists lie! wow, apparently its true, yes, people who plan to blow up buildings, crash planes etc are often not particularly honest people!

apparently murderers let the odd flasehood go from their lips on occasion too.

thanks for bringing this to my attention!

lets sum up: your argument is that becasue the 911 hijackers were 'undercover', and were not totally up front about their intentions with the general public, that that makes all muslims liars?

and of couse you fail to see that these people might just be, or, maybe insane, or cult members, or criminals, but nope, according to you they are completely and justifiably 'representatives' of all followers of the islamic faith.

you really must have a brain the size of a pea.

is jim jones, or david koresh, or charles manson, or the btk serial killer, or hitler, or Yahweh ben Yahweh, or how about the kind christian folks involved in the slaughter of 900 000 in Rawanda in 1994? How about those god fearing christians involved in the slave trade? How about the famous phrase uttered by christians during the crisades "kill them all, god will know his own"?
How about george bush?

are these people representative of all of christianity?

maybe they are. it certianly would explain how you are the way you are.

• Posted by: Vince • Report Comment

STUDY THEY ENEMY

17.12.07, 8:09am

Vince if you push the so called moderate Muslims enough you'll see just how moderate they really are. I suggest you done some homework on them and you'll see how they really operate.

"Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed. (See Sura (9:3) - ("...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters...")

Another example is when Muhammad tricked the leader of an opposing tribe with whom he was not at war to leave his town on the pretext of meeting with him at Medina. Usayr ibn Zarim traveled with thirty men who were unarmed because of Muhammad's guarantee of safety. They were easily massacred by the prophet's Muslim assassins.

The 9/11 hijackers practiced deception by going into bars and drinking alcohol, thus throwing off potential suspicion that they were fundamentalists plotting jihad. This effort worked so well, in fact, that even weeks after 9/11, John Walsh, the host of a popular American television show, said that their bar trips were evidence of 'hypocrisy.'

The transmission from Flight 93 records the hijackers telling their doomed passengers that there is "a a bomb on board" but that everyone will "be safe" as long as "their demands are met." Obviously none of these things were true, but these men, who were so intensely devoted to Islam that they were willing to "slay and be slain for the cause of Allah" (as the Qur'an puts it) saw nothing wrong with employing Taqiyya in order to facilitate their mission of mass murder.

The near absence of Qur'anic verse and reliable Hadith that encourage truthfulness is somewhat surprising, given that many Muslims are convinced that their religion teaches honesty. In fact, it is because of this ingrained belief that most Muslims are quite honest.

Finally, the circumstances by which Muhammad allowed a believer to lie are limited to those that either advance the cause of Islam or enable a Muslim to avoid harm to his well-being (and presumably that of other Muslims as well). Although this should be kept very much in mind when dealing with matters of global security, such as Iran's nuclear intentions, it is not grounds for assuming that the Muslim one might personally encounter on the street or in the workplace is any less honest than anyone else."

• Posted by: Defiant • Report Comment

AND ANOTHER THING..

17.12.07, 1:35am

I'm off to give an armful of blood donation in the morning.

• Posted by: Zeigfreid • Report Comment

YOU ARE NEARLY RIGHT THERE VINCE, OLD BOY

17.12.07, 1:34am

I nearly got bored to death by a Jehovah on my doorstep a few weeks ago.

• Posted by: Zeigfreid • Report Comment

SO ONCE AGAIN...

16.12.07, 6:36pm

I bring in a case (two actually) that defies your stereotypes, and you come back with one incident of a father stangling his daughter (once agian, something that has never, of course, happened in christendom) to say that all muslims are bad, even canadian ones. that is pretty sad argumentation, to say the least.

the fact is, multiculturalism is not a flawed idea that leads to conflict (and no, the idea that 'canada is a big country does not work, its population is half britians, and it is a more urbanised nation (i.e. a higher percentage of the population live in cities as opposed to the countryside than in britain), so the 'space' argument is a non-starter).

furthermore, the only countries that are experiencing 'islamic terrorism' in the west are the ones directly involved in conflict. eg. spain, who pulled out of the iraq war and have had no terrorism since.

it seem to me that your attempts to lay the current violence at the feet of the islamic religion are flawed, and we are back to these being caused by geopolitical conflicts, not the islam itself.

• Posted by: Vince • Report Comment